译文简介:

在你看来,历史中的五大文明是哪些？

译文来源:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/archive/index.php/t-481784.html

正文翻译:

http://www.ltaaa.com/translation/
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：翻译加工厂转载请注明出处

-------------译者：wersan-审核者：cicicat------------

Since so many suggestions here almost seem like veil'ed attempts at debating Civilizations respective greatnesses, I thought I'd make a thread on it.

这里有很多人想讨论各自文明的非凡之处，由于有这么多迹象，我想我可以捋捋它们。

Obviously no ethnic slurs or personal insults but otherwise anything goes.

显然这是不能有种族诽谤或个人侮辱，除此都行。

Don't have time to elaborate now, but here very tentatively is mine:

我没时间搞的很周密，看看俺的初步想法：

1. Greek Civilization (too obvious)
2. British Civilization (magna carta, rights of individual, the spread of Liberal ideas around the world, creation of global lingua franca)
3. Sumerian Civilization (the wheel, writing, the first cities, agriculture)
4. Japanese Civilization (like China, but adapted and borrowed much more succesfully to the modern world)
5. Persian/Hebrew Civilization (not the same just can't decide. again to obvious)

1.希腊文明（这必须的）
2.英国文明（大宪章，个人的权利，遍及全球的自由思想，满世界通用的语言）
3.苏美尔文明（车轮，文字，第一个城市，农业）
4.日本文明（就像中国，但更多更成功得适应和对现代世界做出了贡献）
5.波斯/希伯来文明（很明显不一样，只是不能决定）

idk this thread probably isnt a smart idea

我想这个排法或许不是个好想法

评论翻译:

http://www.ltaaa.com/translation/

原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：翻译加工厂转载请注明出处

-------------译者：07作战靴-审核者：寒灯独夜人------------

Nice list Pavel but I strongly disagreed because your list is heavily eurocentric. The biggest flaw is that you left China complitely outside.

不错的名单，但我坚决反对因为名单欧洲中心论太严重了，最大的缺点是把中国排除在外。

1st: China.
Not matter how hard or how many times China has been collapsed it has always risen again as a great power. China is also one of oldest civilizations on earth which has had continous tradition since earliest age I can say without doubt China is the greatest civ ever.

第一中国
无论多么艰难或多少次次中国崩溃，他总是以一个伟大的力量崛起。中国也是一个最古老的文明有连续的传统。我可以毫不怀疑中国是有史以来最伟大的文明。

2nd: Greek.
I doubt I need to mention any merits why Greek is on second place. Greek also like China has had lot of misfortunes during the history but the reason why it is behind China is because Greek has been steadily declining last 500 years.
From this point I cant anymore put civs on the list. How can I say British were better than Summerians? Both of them contriputed enourmosly for mankind. I cannot argue how French are lower than British or Romans.

第二希腊
我想我得提到一些优点来支持希腊第二。希腊也像中国在历史上曾有很多不幸，但它在中国后面的原因是在这500年一直在下降。
从这一点上我不能再把其他文明写到名单上。我怎么能说得比苏美尔比英国人好？他们都对人类功不可没。我能说法国不如英国或罗马人。

China,Greece,British,Russia and Arabia
And I also think America will be a great civilization at last

希腊，英国，中国，俄罗斯和阿拉伯
我也认为美国最后将是一个伟大的文明。

-------------译者：三年香-审核者：寒灯独夜人------------

I would say China and India joint first. So many important things, ideas, creations etc have come from that part of the earth.

我会说最为出色的是中国和印度地区。如此多的重大事件、伟大思想、创造发明等等都来自于地球的这个地方。

Then the Arab/Islamic civilisation as they continued to develop a lot of what came from China and India.

并且阿拉伯的伊斯兰教文明持续和发展的源泉很多来自于中国和印度。

In my mind I always see the european civilisations as a 'European civilisation". As an Englishman I know we had a massive empire etc etc but were we a 'great civilisation'? Hmmm my instant response is 'no'. Powerful yes, but war doesn't make one great!

在我的脑海中我总是把各种欧洲文明看做一种“欧洲文明”。作为一名英国人我们拥有强大的君权等等，但是我们是一个伟大的文明吗？嗯，我瞬间的反应“不是”。强大是毋庸置疑的，但是战争不可能造就伟大。

For me the 'great' civilisations are those that have a legacy of some kind. Preferably positive (or neutral such as language).

对我来说，“伟大的”文明是那些留下了文化遗产的文明。最好是正面的（或者中立，像是一门语言）。

In my mind I always see the european civilisations as a 'European civilisation". As an Englishman I know we had a massive empire etc etc but were we a 'great civilisation'? Hmmm my instant response is 'no'. Powerful yes, but war doesn't make one great!
Europe is definetly a civilization. Thats why North-America+Europe is called western world because even divided on multiple states we share more or less same religion, politics and moral values. Even differences between America and Russia, two old enemies, are superficial

.欧洲文明是一种明确的文明。这就是为什么北美加上欧洲被叫做西方世界，因为即使我们居住在不同的地方，我们仍然或多或少的分享相同的信仰，政治，价值观。甚至美国和俄国之间的差异，这两个老敌人，也仅仅是表面上的。

Euro civ is important. But all roots of Euro leads to older civ, especially Rome and Greek which are based more older civs. American civ compared to history is rather irrelevant. America is young and has not achived anything truely unique what other nations could not have done later expect breaking record of fat people in society. America defeated Nazis and Commies but it is less than hundred year in known history which is older than 5000 years.

欧洲文明是重要的。但是欧洲的根基通向更古老的人民，尤其是罗马和希腊立基于更古老的人民。比起前者深厚的历史，“美国文明”就不值一提了。美国十分年轻并且没有做到任何确切的独一无二的其他国家没有做到过的事情，除了后来打破了社会肥胖人民的记录。美国曾经打败了纳粹以及共产党员，但是它已知的历史少于一百年，而中国和印度历史超越了五千年。

-------------译者：waqq77-审核者：cicicat------------

Some scholars believe that the Roman Empire never collapsed, but lives on in the Western World.

（回樓上）有学者相信罗马帝国并未消逝，而是存在于（现在的）西方世界中。

That's an interesting point. I've always thought it is difficult to dismiss the idea to treat Europe and China in Civ similarly. So if there is only one Chinese civilization to speak of, there might as well be one Romanic-European (France, Spain, Portugal, Italy), one Germanic-European (Britian, Scandinavia, German-speaking countries, Benelux, maybe even add USA) and one Slavic-European (Poland, Balkans, Russia) civilization each at best.

（回樓上上）这个想法真有意思。我一直认为这很难不去想欧洲和中国之间的文明相似。因此如果说只有一个中华文明可言，那么(整个欧洲文明)可能最好分成一个罗马欧洲文明（法国、西班牙、葡萄牙和意大利），一个日耳曼欧洲文明（英国、斯堪的纳维亚、德语国家、比荷卢经济联盟，或许还要加上美国）或一个斯拉夫欧洲文明（波兰、巴尔干和俄罗斯）。

What is a civ? There are some common element that are hard to disagreed: holy days, festivals, calendar, language, justice, morals, religion and large non-goverment decentralized organization.
As I said differences are superficial. For example British people are mixture of Celtic, Romans, Saxons and Scandinavians. They clearly dont belong to any specific ethnic group, even English is largely mixture of differencent languages.
Chinese are also a big huge house of nations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_China
We thought they all are same people because their language and scripts are so alien to us.
Even I must admit for being superficial. I said America+EU are Western countries but I ignored whole Latin America. So Euro civ does not exist but Western civ exist definetly. Western civ is loosely organized civ but also most powerful. Before New World was discovered Euro civ existed.

（回樓上）文明是什么？有许多共同元素让你很难否认：圣日、节日、历法、语言、公正、道德、宗教以及大量分散的无政府组织。
如我说过的差异是肤浅的。例如英国人是赛尔特人、罗马人、撒克逊人以及斯堪的纳维亚人的混血。他们严格意义来说不属于任何一个特定族群，甚至英语也是混合了多种不同语言。
中国也是一个民族大熔炉：http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_China 我们会认为他们都是同种人是因为他们的语言和书写都对我们如同天书。
甚至我必须承认我的肤浅。我说过欧美是西方国家但是却忽略了拉美。因此欧洲文明不存在但西方文明确实存在。西方文明虽松散但依旧很有力量。新大陆被发现前欧洲文明还是存在过的。

-------------译者：stupidben-审核者：cicicat------------

Egypt (everyone is forgetting that when the Greatest Pharaoh Ramses II saw the Pyramids, they were already 2000 years old)
China (for the reasons mentioned above, truthfully China actually spawns way too early)
Roma (argueably their empire lasted a good 2000 years straight)
Britain (greatest 'modern' civ)
India (could also be Russia)

埃及（你们似乎忘记了金字塔在拉美西斯法老二世看见的时候已经建成两千年了。）
中国（由上面提到的可知，中国其实很早就起源了。）
罗马（关于他们的帝国是否持续2000年还是有争议的。）
大不列颠（伟大的“现代”文明）
印度（也可以说是俄罗斯）

Everyone also seems to forget that Ramses II was far from the greatest of Pharaohs (although his Dad may be a different story).
Anyway
-The Greeks (ditto)
-The British (ditto)
-The Chinese (survived massive upheaval time and time again and has proven extremely innovative over the years)
-The Romans (ran a society far more sophisticated and impressive than anything seen until the enlightenment, even if they eventually ran themselves into the ground)
-The Persians (tolerant, controlled vast areas generally quite effectively).

（回樓上）拉米西斯二世远不是最伟大的法老，你们似乎忘记了这点。（然而他的父亲的话，那就另当别论了。）
不管怎样
-希腊文明 (同上）
-大不列颠（同上）
-中华文明（在一次又一次的巨变中存活至今，也证明了其实极其富有革新精神的。)
-罗马文明（在启蒙运动前运行一个比其他文明更复杂的社会，是令人印象深刻的。即使他们最后把自己玩死了。）
-波斯文明（很宽容，控制了大片地区，还是很有影响力的。）

I really don't know what you are talking about... :confused:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_II
Dad was:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seti_I

（回樓上上）我不知道你说的”困惑“究竟是指什么
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_II （拉米西斯二世）
他父亲：
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_I

Let me expand on that. Both of these men, for instance, campaigned to try and take Kadesh. Both failed. Seti realised this after his first year of campaigning there, and seems to have made some sort of truce.

（回樓上）让我来就他们进行进一步阐述吧。比如，对卡叠什（叙利亚城市）发起的征服战役都失败了。在第一年的战役之后Seti意识到了，而且似乎是与对方达成了一些停战协议。

Rameses then broke this truce, attacked Kadesh and was then defeated in a military disaster which nearly cost him his life as well as that of the royal family, seemingly because he fell for (obvious) false intelligence. This meant that, due to his own stupidity, he not only lost Amurru and Upi but destabilized his entire hold on Palestine, leaving the entire region back where it was before Seti I had reaffirmed control over it (Palestine and Syria would generally revolt to some degree when a new Pharoah came to the throne and Rameses himself had performed shorter campaigns to similar ends). Once he had re-subdued Palestine (and embarked on a massive advertising campaign in Egypt to convince everyone that Kadesh was not a humiliating defeat), he then spent ten more year campaigning to try and win back Kadesh and Amurru an end to which he was completely unsuccessful despite the fact that the Hittites were busy with a succession crisis and weren't around to oppose him. So, in short, aside from being a stupid general (at other times he also claims to have gone into battle without armour on to impress his troops), he spent ten year wasting lives and resources in the north for no gain, when Seti had been smart enough to cut his losses and return home.

拉米西斯随后打破了协议，袭击了卡叠什。而且军事上被灾难性的打败了。这几乎让他和他的皇室殒命于此。看来他（明显的）败给了错误情报。这意味着，由于他的愚蠢，不仅使他失去了Amurru地区和Upi地区（译注：WiKi----Amurru：又称Amorite Kingdom（公元前14-12世纪），位于现今叙利亚和黎巴嫩之间；Upi：又称Upu/Apu，公元前14世纪是位于现今大马士革周边地区），而且使他手里的巴勒斯坦地区陷入了不稳定。让整个地区回到了Seti一世重新控制之前的样子。（一般在新的法老登上王位的时候巴勒斯坦和叙利亚都要起义，拉米西斯采用的速战式的进攻。其结果是一样的。

一旦他重新征服了巴勒斯坦（他就对埃及采取了地毯式的占领，使人们相信卡叠什之败并不是羞辱）。然后他又花了十年时间去重新占领卡叠什和Amurru。尽管当时的Hittites正在闹继承危机并没有全力反抗，但是他还是完全的失败了。所以，长话短说，除了是一个愚蠢的将军之外（其他时候他也声称曾经不穿盔甲也去参加了战役，让他的军队对他倾倒），他浪费了十年的生命和资源在北方，而且一无所获。而Seti 就聪明得多。减少过多的损失，打道回府。。

I'll stop there (I could go on for ages). In short, I'll say that while Rameses II was a great Pharoah, he was hardly the greatest; Amenhotep III and Seti were better builders, Horemheb was a better administrator and Rameses III, Seti and Tuthmosis III were better generals.

到此为止吧（其实可以谈论很多年），短说，尽管拉米西斯二世是个伟大的法老，但他远不是最伟大的。Amenhotep三室和Seti是更好的建筑者，Horemheb是更好的管理者。拉米西施三世，Seti 和Tuthmosis三世是更好的将军。

Rameses II is basically like Amenhotep III; he inherited a good deal, but unlike Amenhotep his buildings were shoddy and he wasted years on unnecessary campaigning.

拉米西斯二世基本上和Amenhotep三世类似，他继承了好的基础。但不像Amenhotep，他的成就很拙劣，并且浪费了大把时间在不成功的占领上。

-------------译者：aasuibianba-审核者：cicicat------------

As an historian I agree with the analysis that Egyptian civilisation was a 'dead end' civilisation :mischief:

作为一个历史学家，我认同埃及文明是走到了“死胡同”的文明

Rome
Egypt
China
Britain
Greece
Then after that Persia, Spain, France, Russia, India, Japan

罗马
埃及
中国
英国
希腊
之后是波斯，西班牙，法国，俄国，印度，日本

I'm rather surprised to see Spain pop up near the top of a 'greatest civilization' list.
More like destructors of civilization (Cordobans, Flemish, Aztec, Inca, Maya remnants...).

（回樓上）我很吃惊西班牙会在“最伟大的文明”名单上接近顶端
它更像是文明的破坏者（科尔多瓦，弗兰芒，阿芝特克，印加，玛雅遗族……）

Greatest:
1. Greco-Roman
2. Anglo-American
3. Sino-Japanese
4. Turko-Persian
5. Indian
We're talking about civilizations, not polities

最好的：
1.希腊-罗马
2.英-美
3.中-日
4.特尔克-波斯
5.印度
我们在谈论文明，而不是政治

Civilization doesn't have a universally agreed definition. Could also divide into Christina, Islamic, Hindu etc. civilization

（回樓上）文明并没有一个世界范围内认同的定义。也可以分成基督教、伊斯兰教、印度教文明等等

3. Sino-Japanese
This civilization doesn't exist. The Chinese and Japanese civilizations are clearly seperate from each other, since they were never even close to being ruled together as one entity.

3.中-日
这种文明并不存在。中国和日本的文明和彼此明显相互分离，因为他们从未被当做一个整体被统治过。

Well if you follow this argument the German civilization doesn't exist either.

（回樓上）如果你继续这种讨论那么德国文明也从未存在过。

I have no idea what you are saying. What has Germany to do with China and Japan being two separate civilizations?
Most of Germany has been under a more or less unified rule for more than 1000 years and has been a region with similar culture and language, while China and Japan always have been two clearly different countries.
The fact that Japan was controlled by an outside power only once in its entire history (the US after WWII) is clear evidence that it's a civilization of its own and China is obviously one too.

（回樓上）我不明白你在说什么。德国和中日是两个分别独立的文明有什么关系？
大部分的德国被差不多统一的规则统治了超过1000年，而且是一个有着相似文化和语言的同一地区，而中国和日本一直都是两个明显不同的国家。
事实是在日本的整个历史中只有一次被外来的力量控制过（二战后的美国），这个证据明确说明了这是一个独立的自有文明，而且中国很明显也是如此。

-------------译者：acfr77-审核者：寒灯独夜人------------

Civilization is more culture than country, but that's my opinion.
Nation-states and civilization simply do not equate.
The Germany statement is also incorrect. Germany was a cluster of independent states
(the HRE does not count as a cohesive entity, imo)
until the late 1800s coinciding with the rise of Prussia and German unification after the Franco-Prussian War.

（回樓上）文明更多是指文化意义上的而不是国家意义上的，但那只是我的观点。
民族国家并不等同于文明。
德国这个说法也是不正确的。德国过去只是一些各自独立的州。
(按我的看法，神圣罗马帝国不能算做一个凝聚的实体)
直到十九世纪晚期正好遇到普鲁士崛起，经过普法大战后德国才统一。、

I think iOnlySignIn is thinking of it in terms of the Sinosphere:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinosphere

我觉得iOnlySignIn在汉文化圈方面也是这样想的。
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinosphere (汉文化圈)

Personally, I would treat the two (China & Japan) as separate myself unless discussing within context,
shared cultural heritage, which is the broadest sense of civilization, in which I would agree that they belong together as Sinic civilization.

个人来说，我会把两个文明(中国和日本)分开，除非在一定背景下讨论。按最广泛意义上的文明来看，他们共享文化遗产，我同意他们都属于东亚文化圈。

That being said, in no particular order:
1. Indian
2. Slavic
3. Sinic
4. Western
5. Islamic

无顺序的排列：
1.印度
2.斯拉夫
3.东亚
4.西方
5.伊斯兰

But going by what the general style of the thread is,
which focuses on individual, specific members of the
overarching cultural bubbles of civilizations:
1. Greek
2. Chinese
3. Arab
4. Roman
5. British

下面的排列线索专注于整个文化泡沫中独立而具体的文明：
1.希腊
2.中国
3.阿拉伯
4.罗马
5.不列颠

Most of Germany has been under a more or less unified rule for more than 1000 years（引用）

（回樓上上）大部分的德国被差不多统一的规则统治了超过1000年(引用)

Not really, no.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_question

这不是真的
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_question (日耳曼人问题)

But of course you know Germany history better than I do.

当然你比我更懂德国历史。

That is not to mention the Dutch and the Swiss Germans, who are (with all due respect) just hipster Germans.

那(wiki)还没有提到荷兰与瑞士日耳曼人，(恕我直言)他们只是hipster(一种爵士乐爱好者亚文化)日耳曼人。

The fact that Japan was controlled by an outside power only once in its entire history (the US after WWII) is clear evidence that it's a civilization of its own.

事实上日本在历史上只被外部力量控制过一次(二战后的美国)，这是个明显的证据，能证明它拥有自己的文明(引用)

Same goes for East Germany (the Soviet Union after WWII). Or am I missing something.

同样情况还有东方日耳曼人(二战后的苏联)。或许我还漏掉了一些。

-------------译者：acfr77-审核者：cicicat------------

1. Greek (Roots of metacognition, geometrical appliance outside of shapes, secularism)
2. Indian (Buddha, roots of mathematics)
3. Japanese (Honestly, having lived here, it's one of the most moral and sophisticated countries out there. Don't let those anime shows make you think otherwise!)
4. American (Pre- Cold War)
5. Roman (even if they are sons of es -- and they wrecked mathematics and slaughtered my ancestors. They were a virus.)

1.希腊(元认知，几何外形装置，世俗主义的起源)
2.印度(佛，数学起源)
3.日本(老实说，能排这里是因为它是最讲道德最精致的国家之一，不要让那些动画片让你想反了)
4.美国(冷战前)
5.罗马(即使他们是es(译注：西班牙？因为都是拉丁人？)的子嗣，他们毁灭了数学，屠杀了我的祖先，他们就是一种病毒。)

But it's important to remember that civilizations are just cultures, and cultures are just memories and peer pressure.

但重要的是记住文明只是文化，而文化只是记忆和同伴压力。

1. Greco-Roman
2. Chinese
3. Arab
4. Persian
5. British

1.希腊-罗马
2.中国
3.阿拉伯
4.波斯
5.不列颠

Most influencial
1 China
2 Western
3 Arab
4 Greco-Roman
5 Persian or Mongol
Greatest
1 China
2 Western
3 Arab
4 Egypt or Mesopotamian

最有影响力
1.中国
2.西方
3.阿拉伯
4.希腊-罗马
5.波斯或者蒙古

最伟大
1.中国
2.西方
3.阿拉伯
4.埃及或者美索不达米亚

-------------译者：heaven0324-审核者：cicicat------------

I had Japan in place for China, they avoided the cultural stagnation and disasters of their later history. Imo.

我认为日本可以取代中国的位置，因为他们在近代避免了文化停滞与灾难。

Slavic above Western?
I adore Russia and her cultural monuments, but as a succesful Civilization? I think Russia's development was severely retarded by long opression the Mongol Conquests, followed by the Muslim Tartars.
Long legacy of brutal thugs for rulers into the 21 century. Even if it produced Pushkin.

斯拉夫在排名西方之上？
我热爱俄罗斯和她的文化古迹，但是并非认为它是一个成熟的文明。它被蒙古鞑子和穆斯林鞑靼长期压迫，并在统治者悠久的残暴统治中走进了21世纪——即使他诞生了普金。

I'm not quite talking Samuel Huntington here btw.
This won't suprise anyone here, but why Islamo-Arab civilization? Practically all the "Islamic/Arab" inventions came from the Indians, Chinese, Syriacs or Persians.
European Civilization overtook them very quickly even as it was threatened with extionction from the Vikings, Moors, Saracens & later Ottomans.
Most of the Muslim countries of today are all some of the poorest and most internally violent countries in the world, excepting for accidents of Geography.

顺便说下我并不很认同萨缪尔·亨廷顿的观点。
我想着并不令人惊讶。但是为什么要加上“伊斯兰-阿拉伯文明”呢？几乎所有的“伊斯兰-阿拉伯文明”均源于印度、中国、叙利亚或者波斯。
欧洲文明很快地追上了它们——即使它遭受维京人、摩尔人、萨拉森人及以后的奥斯曼人的威胁并几度并于灭绝。
除了个别例子，绝大部分穆斯林国家都是当今世上最贫穷、国内暴力最严重的国家。

As an historian I agree with the analysis that Egyptian civilisation was a 'dead end' civilisation :mischief:

作为一名历史学家，我赞同对埃及文明的分析：它是一个走向灭绝的文明。（扮个鬼脸啦~）

Haha! I was always insisting this in Class...people were very unimpressed.
Much of their history is just them being conquered by one Civilization after another... I not recall them inventing anything past the Shadoof either.

哈哈！我还在学校时就坚持着我的观点，不过人们并不为所动。
他们的很多历史就是被一个又一个文明推倒、、、除了桔槔我压根儿想不起来他们曾经发明了什么东西。。。

One could argue that Western inventions before the industrial revolution were from the muslim and roman world. Plus, the poorest regions in the world are in sub-saharian Africa (christian and muslim)... which is poor mostly because of the colonisation and because our modern economic system is very disadvantageous to them. Plus, I wouldn't call 700 years (700-1400) 'overtaking quickly'. And, up until 1700, Europeans and Muslims were pretty equal.

（回樓上）我们可以说，在工业革命之前，西方文明是源自穆斯林文明和罗马文明的。此外，世界上最穷的地方是黑非洲地区（此地混有基督徒和穆斯林）。。。而他们的贫穷则源于历史上的殖民统治和（当今）对他们不利的现代经济体系。再者，我并不认为700年（700-1400）的追赶过程可以称得上是“很快地追上”——直至1700年，欧洲人与穆斯林仍是相当的平等的。

-------------译者：heaven0324-审核者：cicicat------------

The fall of the Islamic world is actually quite a multi-layered issue. Thanks to Europeans being able to sail to India and China rather than cross Arab/Islamic lands, the people of the Middle East lost revenues from what was their largest industry. With less money coming in, less people were capable of being artists, scientists, or engineers. The Ottomans basically lost one of their most profitable industries. The 1700s was the beginning of the end of the Ottoman Empire, which was one of the few non-European states that had equal military and technological status with the major European powers.

（回樓上）伊斯兰世界的沦陷实际上一个相当大的问题。由于欧洲人能够靠航海前往印度与中国（而非穿越阿拉伯/伊斯兰地区）（1），中东的人民收入锐减（2），进而导致艺术家、科学家和工程师数量也相应减少。这也导致奥斯曼帝国基本丧失了最赚钱的几个行业。18世纪是奥斯曼帝国的终结时期。奥斯曼帝国是少数几个非欧洲的，却拥有与欧洲主要国家相当的军事和科技实力的国家。

（译注：
（1）中东是连接欧亚大陆的桥梁，当时奥斯曼帝国的存在阻绝了丝绸之路（亚欧陆上商路）；
（2）由于亚欧陆上商路的断绝，欧洲人开始航海大冒险，探寻海上丝绸之路。很幸运，他们做到了！很不幸，他们做到了……此后商道改变，在陆上的奥斯曼帝国在贸易上的重要性就减弱了；而殖民时代开始，白银大量涌入欧洲，严重冲击了帝国的货币贬值和通胀。此后，帝国经济每况愈下。）

Also, thanks to Arab translations, most classics were able to re-enter Europe during the middle ages, sparking the renaissance. The Arabs copied the texts of people like Aristotle and Euclid that were lost in Europe long before the "dark ages." Once re-introduced to Europe, people no longer had to stare in awe at Roman engineering marvels, as the Europeans themselves could now understand how they were built themselves. Another thing is that many European intellectuals actually went to Arab World centres of higher learning and many great Arab intellectuals' works made it to Europe.

此外，由于阿拉伯人的翻译，大多数经典能够在中世纪重返欧洲，这导致了文艺复兴。阿拉伯人复制了欧洲“黑暗年代”以前就佚失的亚里士多德和欧几里得的作品。这些作品一旦引入欧洲，人们就不再仅仅只是敬畏地仰视罗马时期的工程奇迹——同样作为欧洲人的他们开始学习如何建设他们自己的土地。还有就是，许多欧洲知识分子竟然跑到阿拉伯世界的高等院校，同时许多阿拉伯知识分子的作品也引入了欧洲。

I do think that the Islamic civilisation deserves to be included as a "greatest civ." They essentially kept the flame of Greco-Roman civilization alive while expanding on many ideas of Indian and Chinese origin. Perhaps the greatest asset of the Arabs was that they stretched from Europe to Asia and were able to gather two incomplete ideas from two different groups and expand on them to achieve great things.

我想伊斯兰文明是值得列入“最伟大文明”行列的。他们基本上保持了希腊罗马文明的荣光，同时又从印度和中华文明中汲取了许多营养。也许最伟大的贡献在于，阿拉伯人横跨欧亚，将两种完全不同的文明进行了部分的融糅，同时扩大了它们并产生了伟大的成就。

In the end, I think we can all agree that Europe (and possibly the world) would be far less advanced had the Arabs not been able to/wanted to preserve and expand on the knowledge of great civilizations past.

最后，我想我们都会同意这样一个观点：如果阿拉伯人不曾/不愿掌握或者发展过去的伟大文明的话，欧洲（或者可能是全世界）都会远落后与现在。

Edit: My 5 greatest civs would be:
1) China
2) India
3) Greco-Roman
4) Islamic
5) Western

我认为的5个最伟大文明名单：
1）中国
2）印度
3）希腊-罗马
4）伊斯兰
5）西方

-------------译者：原木易朽-审核者：寒灯独夜人------------

Imho, the Church was a straight continuation of the Greco-Roman world, Western and Greco-Roman I wouldn't separate.
I think prior the 600's Egypt & Syria were definately the core parts of Greco-Roman Civilization.

恕我直言，教廷是一条古希腊古罗马文明的延续线，西方世界和古希腊古罗马文明是不可脱离的。
我觉得600年前的埃及和叙利亚绝对是古希腊古罗马文明的核心之一。

I would say the High Middle Ages (late 1200's roughly) was when Europe overtook the Near-East. If I said poorest, I said some of the poorest.

我想说在中世纪盛期（约1200年末）那时欧洲就超越了近东地区（译注：欧洲人指亚洲西南部和非洲东北部地区，伊朗、阿富汗除外）。个人所见，有错请包涵

One institution surviving, in my opinion, doesn't mean that the Germanic tribe who established themself in Western Europe are a continuation of the roman civilization. It is ambiguous, there is probably no way to prove that one of us is right (except if we continue to debate until one of us change his opinion, which is likely not going to happen).
Europe didn't overtook the Near-East as soon as they hit the Renaissance. The Renaissance isn't Europe finding a mysterious shiny black box that contained the knowledge of the whole world in which a small message mentionned that the civilization who would found that box would eventually took over the world. It was a slow process. Plus, Europa Universalis makes the perso-arabo-turkish world start with their technologies at level 5 while Europe is at level 4:mischief:

（回樓上）依我所见，在西欧建立的日耳曼族群只是一个制度的幸存，并不意味这是古罗马文明的延续。对这些是说不清的，可能没法证明谁是正确的（除非争论不休，直到我们其中之一改变了其他人的意见，而这不大可能发生）。
欧洲并未超越近东地区直到文艺复兴。文艺复兴不是欧洲发现的一个装满整个世界知识的神秘闪耀的黑盒，其中提到，只有文明人才能发现这个最终掌管世界的盒子。这个进程是缓慢的。而且，在《欧陆风云》里设定波斯-阿拉伯-土耳其世界的始定科技水平有5而欧洲只有4。:恶作剧:

1. Greco-Roman (For obvious reasons)
2. China (Really invented a lot of the technologies we use today before the West, and has always maintained a great power status even after some major setbacks).
3. Anglo-American (Lingua franca, the industrial revolution, rights of man, free markets, etc.)
4. Indian (Concept of zero, oldest continuously practiced religion, approximation of pi, Pythagorean theorem, approximation of sine, etc.)
5. Egypt (Building of monumental pyramids, temples, and obelisk, a practical and effective system of medicine, irrigation systems and agricultural production techniques, the first known ships, Egyptian faience and glass technology, new forms of literature, and the earliest known peace treaty with Hittites.)

1.古希腊古罗马文明（显而易见）
2.华夏文明（创造发明了太多早于西方且沿用至今的科学技术，即使经历许多磨难仍然保持着大国地位）
3.英美文明（国际通用语，工业文明，人权，自由贸易等等）
4.古印度文明（创造了零的概念，最古老不断的宗教活动，近似计算，毕达哥拉斯定理，正弦的近似值等等）
5.古埃及（建立宏大的金字塔，方尖碑，建立实用有效的医学体系，灌溉系统和农业生产技术，建造世界上已知的第一艘船，埃及彩陶和玻璃工艺技术，新的文学形式，跟赫人签订了世上已知的第一条和平条约）

-------------译者：2029736-审核者：寒灯独夜人------------

1. Egypt (the achievements of this ancient civilization so completely astound me I can't NOT put them first)
2. China
3. Greece
4. Rome
5. I'm not totally sure. I was thinking of saying Sumeria/Babylonia, or maybe Britain, or maybe India, or maybe Incas... I just can't say.
I'm sure about my first 4 though, haha.

1.埃及（这个古老的文明所取得的成就完全地震惊了我以至于我不能不把它排在第一）
2.中华文明
3.希腊文明
4.罗马文明
5.我不是很确定。我觉得苏美尔/巴比伦王国,或者是英国,或者印度,或者印加文明都可以.....无法确定哪一个
但是我能肯定前面四个，哈哈

1. Rome
2. China
3. Egypt
4. Greece
5. Mongols

1.罗马文明
2.中华文明
3.埃及文明
4.希腊文明
5.蒙古文明

(everyone is forgetting that when the Greatest Pharaoh Ramses II saw the Pyramids, they were already 2000 years old)
[/LIST]
Everyone also seems to forget that Ramses II was far from the greatest of Pharaohs (although his Dad may be a different story).
Anyway
-The Greeks (ditto)
-The British (ditto)
-The Chinese (survived massive upheaval time and time again and has proven extremely innovative over the years)
-The Romans (ran a society far more sophisticated and impressive than anything seen until the enlightenment, even if they eventually ran themselves into the ground)
-The Persians (tolerant, controlled vast areas generally quite effectively).

（我们还记得当金字塔在最伟大的法老拉美西斯二世看见的时候，就已经存在了2000年了吗）
人们似乎忘记了法老拉美西斯二世（而他的父亲则完全是另外一回事）
无论如何
-希腊文明（同上所说）
-大不列颠文明（同上所说）
-中华文明（在大规模的变动中一次又一次地存活下来，并且证明着多年以来一直都具备着创新性）
-罗马文明（运营着一个之前从没见过的更为复杂和令人印象深刻的社会体系直到启蒙运动,即使他们最终还是衰落了）
-波斯文明（宽容,富有成效地掌控着大片土地面积）

This thread disappoints me. So little rationality, so much emotion.

这些排名真让我失望，如此少的合理性,如此多的个人偏好包含在里面。

-------------译者：原木易朽-审核者：cicicat------------

^If we tally up the civs with the highest frequency of occurrence across lists,
then I think the definitive "Top 5" can be extracted from the data.

（回樓上）如果我们要总结一个高频率出现在列表中的文明，那我认为前五名可以明确地在上述中数据得出。

And of course, we can find out which civs are the "hipster" choices too. :mischief:

当然，我们也发现了一些“新颖”的对文明的选择。（笑）

And they would be..
1) China! with 14 listings
2) Greece! with 13 listings
3) Rome! with 12 listings
4) Britain! with 8 listings
5) India! with 7 listings
Honorable mentions: Persia and Arabia both with 6 listings
Some notes:
I counted Greco-Roman as a vote for both Greece and Rome.
If people wrote multiple lists I only used one.
The top 3 are quite a few above the rest, after Rome it just gets dicey.

综上已选……
1）中国！上榜14次
2）古希腊！上榜13次
3）古罗马！上榜12次
4）英国！上榜8次
5）古印度！上榜7次
鼓励奖：波斯和阿拉伯并列为6次
注意：
我把投给古希腊古罗马的票算成古希腊和古罗马都得一票。
如果大家写了很多列表的话，我只用一个。
前三名的票数远多于剩下的，排古罗马之后的有点危险。

Not everyone has given their input yet, but this is a good reference point.
And it was pretty hard for me to not include either India or Persia in my own list,
as I do believe both of them strongly contributed to overall human development.

（回樓上）不是每个人都已经把自己的看法发表出来，但这会是一个很好的参考。
对我而言这是相当困难的，我的排名里既没古印度也没有波斯，但我相信这两个文明都曾极力促进人类的整体发展。

^ It was hard for me to not include India as well, and despite not everyone having input yet the top 3 are pretty much undisputed, it's just a slugfest for 4th and 5th now.

没有包含古印度对我来说也是极难的，尽管不是每个人都已经选出了前3名，但它们是毋庸置疑的，只剩下第四名和第五名争夺激烈。

-------------译者：原木易朽-审核者：cicicat------------

Just off the top of my head (both civilizations and arguments – tomorrow I maybe could do totally different kind of list):

（我写出我的想法时）没有想太多——（文明和理由-明天我可能做一个完全不同列表）：

5. Great Britain
- Empire on all five continents and still the Queen in paper is ruler of major countries in five continents. British most of time did not have to use brutal violence either conquer or rule (Ireland excluded). British start massacres of civilians in greater scale as desperate measure when sun set of the Empire had already begun.
And I am talking about Britain not English because many Scottish played major role. Strange people those Scotch totally mesh up pretty much everything as nation but were / are excellent to co-rulers with Englishmen of Empire (again exclude Ireland). Anyway I think English learn from “Scotland case” how to make win-win deals with individual clans and how to play them against each other if needed (and to keep clans happy, played them against each other even when it was not needed from London point of view). Valuable lessons for ruling successfully world scale empire.

5.大不列颠
——殖民地遍布五大洲，同时女王在名义上仍是五大洲许多国家的统治者。英国大部分时间没有使用野蛮的暴力去侵略或是统治（其他国家）（爱尔兰除外）。如果英国开始把大规模屠杀平民当作是镇压途径时，帝国将会走向衰弱。
我现在正在说的是英国而不是英格兰，因为那时苏格兰扮演了主要角色。陌生的苏格兰人虽然几乎把他们的地盘弄得比七国还乱，但是无论过去还是现在，他们仍然是这个帝国很好的共同管理者（爱尔兰再次除外）。无论如何，我认为英格兰人是从苏格兰人那学习如何在与不同家族的交易中达到双赢，以及如何让他们反目成仇（还有保持宗族河蟹，让他们内斗即使那时从伦敦的观点上并没有必要）。不列颠为成功地统治世界规模的帝国上了宝贵的一课。

4. India or Indian sub continental civilization
- Founded first of three major worldwide religions: Buddhism, many other “spiritual stuff” too which are unlike in many other parts of world are “connected to present and everyday reality” like for example yoga, Kama Sutra just to mention few most famous ones.
I´m not sure is it actually culture of tolerance or what is / are reasons, but if looked in grand scale history of Indian sub continental there have not been major - or at least successful - persecution of religions, ideologies, culture, etc. All possible (and impossible) religions and political ideology are very much alive in Indian Sub continental. If just talking about India (the country) there have been in power last ten years either in state level or nationwide: secular liberal democrats, fascist fundamental religion party, communist, anarchist autonomist, and conservative right wing party – well list is very long.
And about religions: Jewish communities are one of oldest in world in Indian sub continental and are still locally very important. One of major religious community in Mumbai is Zoroastrianism. So if you want your religion survive and followed others than just hippies bring it to Indian sub continental. ;)
If I remember right in nineteen’s one third of people who worked in Silicon Valley where from Indian sub continental.

4.古印度或印度次大陆文明
——建立了世上三大主要宗教之一的佛教，也建立了许多“精神层面”的东西。与其他世界其他宗教不同是，佛教“连接着当下和现实”。比如瑜伽、Kama Sutra（印度圣经）只是所提到的最著名的一些。
我不确定这实际上是宽容的文化或是其它个别原因所致，但假如回顾规模宏大的印度次大陆历史便可以发现，那儿没有大量的（或者说并不成功）针对宗教，思想和文化等的压迫。在印度次大陆，一切可能（和不可能）的宗教与政治形态都十分活跃。单拿印度来说，在（现政府掌权的）过去十年里，无论是在省邦层面还是全国层面上，（活跃的政治思想）可以列一张很长的名单：世俗自由民主派，法西斯式的宗教党派，共产主义，无政府自由主义和保守的右翼党派
关于宗教：犹太教是世界及印度次大陆上最古老的宗教之一，现在在当地仍然很重要。还有一个在孟买的主要宗教团体是拜火教。所以，如果你想要你的宗教生生不息，并让除了嬉皮士以外的更多人成为信众，那就把你的宗教带到印度次大陆吧。;)
我没记错的话，十九世纪在硅谷工作的人三分之一来自印度次大陆。

3. China
- Usual: all those inventions, writing system, various education methods...
Currently number one in score RL Civilization game and stability over +20 – well played boys & girls… ;)

3.中国
——如上：所有那些发明，写字系统，多种教育方式……
目前《RL文明》游戏得分第一，稳定性超过+20——同志们，干得好！……;)

2. France
- Just one name Napoleon. This guy is famous for his famous wins and losses in battle fields and other places where wars are fought. BUT what we call modern era / world he and France had crucial role. France was most important country for Enlightenment era and Napoleon was perfect enforcer to put those ideas in practice. Napoleon and France started chain reaction which result is modern world. And of course French civilization has made some other important stuff like for example English language…

2，法国
——只是一个名叫拿破仑的人。这家伙因他的著名胜战、败战战场以及其他战场而闻名。但我们认为他对现代历史、世界和法国有至关重要的作用。法国是启蒙时代最重要的国家，以及拿破仑是将理论付诸实际的完美执行者。拿破仑和法国在现代世界上发挥出了连锁反应。当然法国文明还有其他一些重要的东西，像是英语……

1 Finland
- I´m Finnish so… ;)
But if you think Finland and other Nordic countries or Switzerland or Canada or New Zealand, those countries are not so famous from kings and wars which traditional history books usually focus. These countries and others welfare nation kind of make common modern civilization. Most of countries which have welfare system people have been traditionally relative equal and tolerant and in modern times they have put lot of resources to health care and education system which are most of part free. New technology and other inventions come a lot comparing population size. And sometimes quite surprising area of life for example New Zealand made The Lord of the Rings trilogy and Finnish made Angry Birds phenomena.

1.芬兰
——因为我是芬兰人……;)
但如果你们认为芬兰、其他北欧国家或是瑞士、加拿大和新西兰，这些国家在传统历史书上没有通常聚焦的著名的国王和战役。这些国家和其他福利国家属于那种常见的现代文明。许多处于福利制度国家的人有着传统的相互平等，宽容，在近代他们就把大量的资源用于医疗卫生和教育系统这些免费的部分。相对于人口数量（很少，非常少），芬兰有着很多的新科技和发明。有时会在生活上给我们个惊喜，例如新西兰的“指环王”三部曲和芬兰愤怒的小鸟“现象。

-------------译者：xish-审核者：寒灯独夜人------------

And sometimes quite surprising area of life for example New Zealand made The Lord of the Rings trilogy and Finnish made Angry Birds phenomena.（引用）

（回樓上）而且有的时候你会被生活中的某些现象所震惊，例如新西兰人创造了魔戒三部曲而芬兰人只做了愤怒的小鸟。

I'll give you Angry Birds, but you'll find that J.R.R.Tolkien was as English as tea and scones.

我会给你愤怒的小鸟，但你会发现J.R.R.Tolkien实际就像茶和司康饼那样英国化。

Tea was Chinese. :P

茶可是属于中国的。

Chinese didn't put it with scones though.

中国人（喝茶时）可不配司康饼

True dat. :mischief:

确实……

I don't really think this topic can be reconstituted into any kind of coherent, impassive list, for a variety of reasons. But I'm astounded by the congeniality everyone has displayed in making lists, critiques, and rebuttals. That makes me happy to be a netizen. Anyway, to my own list:

由于这种各样原因，我不认为这种话题会达成任何一种类型上客观而统一的排名。但我被这里每个人都专注于制作排名（本身），（实事求是地）评论和给出反证的精神所感动了。这让作为一个网民的我非常高兴。无论如何，我个人的排名如下：

So, I think there are two ways to create this list. The first is "greatness of civilization relative to temporal and historical circumstances," which is cool, and what it seems everyone else is doing. And in that case, I'd probably go with: 1A. Greco-Roman 1B. China 3. Indian 4. British 5. Turkic

首先，我认为这种排名可以由两种方法来创建。第一种即“当今或历史上最伟大的文明”，这很赞，我注意到这里的每个人都是这么来排名的。我认为这种情况下的排名应该是这样的：并列第一：希腊-罗马文明、中国；第三，印度，第四：不列颠，第五：土耳其

But that's not how I really define a culture's greatness. I'd bastardize Amartya Sen's capability approach, and rank them by not only the spread of their culture, but also the justice of the culture they spread. In that case, my real list of greatest civ's is:

但这并不是我个人对一个文明伟大程度的定义。我将用Amartya Sen的能力方法来作为判定标准，不仅仅以一个文明传播文化的广度，而且还要包括他们所传播的文化的价值。在这种情况下，我实际的世界最伟大文明的排名是这样的：

1.) Anglo-American (America being the best DoC rep) - I'm usually laughed out of the room for my lack of jingoistic patriotism, but the American trust in the marketplace of ideas is possible the most important advance in creating a just society since Hammurabi's code.

1.) 盎格鲁-美利坚文明（以美国作为这个文明的典型代表）——我一直为我缺乏爱国主义而哑然失笑，但是美国人始终坚信思想的市场也许是自汉莫拉比法典以来人类向创建一个公平社会迈出的最重要的一步。

2.) Indian (India and especially its last respawn being the best DoC rep)- Buddha, Akbar, Gandhi, Nehru, Sen and hosts of figures in between. India is probably the most under-appreciated of all world civilizations, and is the most exciting experiment of today, as America stagnates, blending the Cosmopolitan pragmatism of their colonial oppressors, the best ideas they could steal from the US, the experience of thousands of years of civilization, and a healthy dose of the world's most forgiving religious tradition (British efforts at exploiting Hindi-Muslim fractures notwithstanding.)

2.) 印度文明（印度特别是她最近一次重生是这个文明的典型代表）——佛陀、阿克巴（莫卧儿帝国皇帝）、甘地、尼赫鲁、苏丝米塔·森（印度著名影星）等诸多名人的故乡。印度也许是当今世界文明中最被低估的一个，也是正在进行着世界上最激动人心的实验的地方。随着美国以及美国充满全球干涉主义的殖民压迫集团的衰弱，（印度）可以从美国手中窃取最好的点子。而且他们拥有着数千年的文明史以及实际上最健康、最宽厚的宗教传统（尽管不列颠成功地使得印度的印度教徒和穆斯林分裂）。

3.) Greco-Roman (Early Rome or pre-Peloponnesian Athens are the best DoC reps. So either Greece or Rome, and not quite Byzantine, my personal favorite civ)- Athenian democracy and the Roman Republic, in addition to their contributions to both arts and sciences place them ahead of...

3.) 希腊-罗马文明（早期罗马或伯罗奔尼撒战争前的雅典是这个文明的典型代表。而拜占庭，我个人最喜欢的文明，并不能代表这个文明）雅典的民主和罗马的共和，以及他们在艺术和科学上的贡献使他们排在后一个文明之前……

4.) ...China (shockingly, China) - who's forward thinking civil service examinations even in antiquity allow the social mobility that gets them on the list. The length of civilized, cohesive statehood and massive contributions to all human knowledge is enough to balance out the fact the the closest the Middle Kingdom has been to democracy is oligarchy, and the current stagnation in the arena of human rights.

4.) 中华文明（令人震惊的，即中国）——他们上榜的理由是他们在古代就开始通过文官考试来保证社会流动性。其文明跨度，国家凝聚力和对人类知识的巨大贡献足以平衡其在中古时代的民主实际是寡头政治以及当今他们在人权发展上的停滞。

5.) Turkic nations (Ottomans are the best rep, only because the Mughals are double-claimed by India) are comparably young, but as I include the Mughals on their tally as well, they make the cut. The Ottomans are under-rated as an advanced society, and this comes from someone who still hasn't forgiven their occupation of Constantinople. The Safavids helped patronize the Sufism that still makes up some of the most liberal Muslims of today, and as someone who also counts the Kurds as part Turkic, they can lay claim to perhaps the greatest monarch of the whole Middle Ages, Salah ad-Din. Also, Ataturk's state is a beautiful model of secular law in an Islamic setting, a regional powerhouse, and the hope of a union of Western and Mid-Eastern value systems, if Erdogan and company don't send them backwards.

4.) 突厥文明（奥斯曼帝国是最佳的代表，而莫卧儿王朝则代表印度文明），这个文明相对要年轻一些，而且如果我把莫卧儿王朝也算进去的话，这其中有断代。奥斯曼帝国是一个被低估了的先进社会，这是由于某些人仍旧为他们占领了君士坦丁堡而耿耿于怀的原因。如今支持苏菲派（Sufism）的萨法维仍是穆斯林社会中最为自由的。而有些人把库尔德人也算作突厥人的一支，这是因为库尔德人萨拉丁建立了也许是中世纪中最伟大的王朝。而且，凯末尔所建立的国家已经成为伊斯兰背景下推行世俗法律的一个优秀案例和地区强国。他甚至可能成为连接西方和中东价值观的桥梁，只要埃尔多安（03年后的土耳其总统）和他的同伴们不开历史倒车的话。

Just missing the cut are the Persians, whose satrapies are one of the oldest and best arguments for the local control often advocated by modern conservatives.

这里所指的断代即波斯人，他们所提出的总督辖地制度是现代保守派所推崇的局部控制概念最古老也是最好的论据。

-------------译者：xish-审核者：寒灯独夜人------------

Turks but not Persians? The Islamic Golden Age was essentially just the afterglow of of pre-Arab (Sassanid and Syriac) cultural achievements, just like the early years of Bolsheviks were. Turks similarly owe their years of pomp to Greek civil infrastructure and Persian cutlure.

土耳其而不是波斯？伊斯兰世界的黄金时代恰恰是前阿拉伯（萨珊王朝和古叙利亚）文化的余晖达到的，就好像早年的布尔什维克那样。土耳其文明是建立在希腊的民用基础设施和波斯的文化之上的。

The Kurds aren't Turkic (they're Indo-Iranian), even if the goverment goes around calling them "Mountain Turks". Salah-Ah-Dins seems largely mythical, he was the guy who began the ugly trend of tearing down Egypt's Pharaonic heritage for raw materials, and his succesor (grandson, I think) tried blowing up the Pyramids.

库尔德人不是突厥人的一支（他们是印度裔伊朗人），即使他们周围的政权称他们为“山地突厥人”。萨拉丁很有可能是虚构的。从他开始，拆毁埃及古代法老遗迹以获得原材料的恶习开始了，而他的继任者（我认为是他的孙子）甚至试图拆了金字塔。

Suprised nobody has claimed a single European nation so far.

很奇怪到现在为止居然没有人把某个单独的欧洲国家（放入清单）。

I'd like to put Korea up.

而我则会把韩国放进去。

Turkic (not Turkish), which doesn't just mean the Ottomans. That family of peoples, which I, and this is debatable, consider a civilization, basically includes every nomad to cross Transoxiana from after the Arab conquest to the Mongols. The Kurds are not, strictly speaking "purely Turkic" (an oxymoron if I ever heard one) but they did absorb Turkomen culture and tribes, and vis-versa

（回楼上）突厥（不是土耳其）并不仅仅指奥斯曼帝国。这些民族（指突厥人），我认为是指蒙古征服阿拉伯之后在中亚河中地区所有的游牧名族以及他们所建立的文明，尽管这一点仍然存在争议。而库尔德人不是严格意义上的“纯突厥人”（我听说过一种矛盾的说法），但他们的确吸收了突厥人的文化和部分部落，反之亦然

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds (citations 66-69)
When you say that the Turks owe their years of pomp to the Greeks and Persians(? - when did the Turks conquer the Persians?) are you just trolling, or is that serious? The Romans owe a lot to the Greeks, too - so does most of Mediterranean/European civilization. But the Byzantine Empire was in disarray when the Turks conquered it. It's not like they walked into Athens at its peak. The fact that they used Greek bureaucracy is admirable, but I'll concede that point. At the same time, they implemented actual field artillery, rebuilt tons of infrastructure, and more than a few architectural masterpieces. And that's _just_ the Ottomans. The Seljuks, among a ton of other Turkic peoples, owe basically nothing that they did to the Greeks. One might argue that they owe the Persians for basic civil organization that persisted through the Arab conquest, but that's a stretch. If that's the case, then the Persians probably owe everything to the Assyrians/Medes/Pontic Tribes/"Elamite Infrastructure" anyway.

你说土耳其文明是建立在希腊和波斯之上的（什么时候突厥人征服过波斯人）？你是在放嘲讽还是认真的？这样来说的话罗马不是也借鉴了很多希腊的东西吗？绝大多数地中海/欧洲文明都是（借鉴了希腊的东西）。但是当拜占庭帝国被土耳其人征服的时候正处在四分五裂的状态中。这和他们（奥斯曼帝国）在巅峰期攻入雅典时不一样。但我必须承认事实上他们使用的是希腊式的文管系统，这是非常值得赞赏的。在同一时期，他们创造了真正的野战炮兵，重建了大量的基础设施以及为数不少的建筑学杰作。而且，这还仅仅是奥斯曼帝国而已。塞尔柱王朝以及其他许多突厥民族并没有收到希腊的影响。有人或许会说他们在阿拉伯被征服后一直在吸取波斯人的基础社会组织形式，但这只是很小的一部分而已。如果这也算是（归功于波斯人）的话，那么波斯文明也许应该归功于亚述人/米堤亚人/黑海部落/埃兰人的“基础设施”之上。

To say that the Islamic Golden Age was just the "afterglow of of pre-Arab (Sassanid and Syriac) cultural achievements" is pretty spurious. Ever here of al-jabr? (You might know it as algebra)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_mathematics - I won't say that the Islamic Golden Age invented modern math. But it might've invented systematizing mathematics.

至于说伊斯兰世界的黄金时代仅仅是“前阿拉伯（萨珊王朝和古叙利亚）文化成就的余晖”更是胡扯。你知道al-jabr是什么吗？（http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_mathematics）我这并不是说伊斯兰实际的的黄金时代发明了现代数学。但他们肯定有系统化的数学成就。

If we start giving civilizations no credit for building on what came before, and claim that they must raze everything and begin anew to get any credit, this is going to get pretty silly pretty quick. And the Sea Peoples, Mongols, Huns, Goths, Vandals, Al-Shabab and Pashtuns are going to get to the top of this list pretty quick. (Note: All of them were badasses, so I'm okay with that. Except Al Shabab.)

不允许一个文明建立在其之前的文明之上，并且要求（这个新文明）必须摧毁一切并从头开始才算是一个完整的文明，这是一种很傻很天真的想法。因为海上民族（指灭赫梯的那个民族），蒙古人，匈奴人，哥特人，汪达尔人，Al-Shabab（索马里激进伊斯兰组织青年党）和普什图人将会成为这个榜单上的头名（注意：这些人都是坏蛋，但对我来说除了Al-Shabab还能接受。）。

If Salah ad-Din is mythical, then Richard Lionheart must've been, too - they met on the field of battle.

如果萨拉丁是虚构的，那么狮心王理查德也一定是虚构的——他们在战场上见过面。

I consider Britain to be European. Same with Rome and Greece. They've all been picked.

我认为不列颠是欧洲的一部分。罗马和希腊也是。他们都被提及了。

-------------译者：2029736-审核者：寒灯独夜人------------

I meant the stories that have gathered around him, like a lot of great military leaders.
Well, for me, originality and adding to the sum-total of progress is the key point on a Civilizations merits.
So while the Persians & English owe much to earlier peoples, they pioneered much more humane and efficient ways of governing than previous & original philosophic/scientific/theological thought, which while building on previous acheivement, had much that was new.
The Romans established (for a while anyway) efficiency and stability (also the flying Butress) of government that the Greeks could never hope for, for all their theories on it. After they conquered the east Aleksandrs Empire soon declined in to Military Dictatorships.
Turks were a great a splendid civilization at their height, but they largely if not entirely operated on previously existing systems and had contributed little that was new, hence their long stagnation and decline.

我的意思是故事的发生都聚集在他周围,就像很多伟大的军事领袖。
对我来说，创新和促进整体的进步才一个文明优秀的关键。
所以当波斯人和英国人拥有纵多人口的时候，他们开创了更加人性化和有效的政府
波斯和大不列颠在很大程度上归功于其民族的早期,比起以前原始哲学、科学、神学思想，他们率先以更加人道和有效的方式进行管理,而建立在之前的科技成果转化中有多少是新的。
罗马人建立了(尽管是暂时的)有效率和稳定的(虽然也是飞扶壁形式的)他们可能从未敢奢望过的政府,一个他们理想的政府。然而在他们征服了东部的Aleksandrs帝国后很快便衰落成为军事独裁统治的国家了。
土耳其，在它的顶峰时期是一个伟大的灿烂的文明，但是他们很大程度上没有彻底改革以前现有的系统而且没有为其文化注入新活力,因此造成了他们长期的停滞和衰落。

1.China
2.USA
3.India
4.Arabia
5.Greece

1.中国
2.美利坚
3.印度
4.阿拉伯
5.希腊

1.Rome
2.Mongolia
3.Greece
4.Britain
5.United States

1.罗马
2.蒙古
3.希腊
4.大不列颠
5.美利坚

I just wanted to say that you have the best username on this forum, bar none. :D

（回楼上）我只是想说在这个论坛上你有最好的用户名,没有例外：D

Eh.
Is he referring to Beezlebub after a bad hangover or praising Lucifer in teen slang?

（回楼上）他是指宿醉后的Beezlebub或者用青少年俚语来赞美路西法？

I think he was denoting the Devil as under quarantine.

我认为他是在指被隔离的魔鬼

5. America
4. Greece
3. China
2. Egypt
1. Rome

5.美利坚
4.希腊
3.中国
2.埃及
1.罗马

1. China
2. Britain
3. India
4. Arabia
5. Greece

1.中国
2.大不列颠
3.印度
4.阿拉伯
5.希腊